High RPM V8s Part 3: Building the Modern 327

"GhostZ" (GhostZ) 01/21/2014 at 10:35 • Filed to: GhostZ, V8s, High RPM, Theoretical Build

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LS swap bro! LS swap! Swap an LS! Seems to be the answer. The above image shows an LS2 swapped into a Datsun 240Z, with lots of room to spare.

This post may or may not be inspired by !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

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So far in my largely-theoretical (at least, until the summer, maybe, cross your fingers!) quest for the ultimate budget screamer, !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , and the possibility of building an !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! , as well as toyed around with the idea of an LT1-based 302 or 327. Both are possible, but I've decided to apply the same idea to LS-based engines, which are known for being unusually high RPM V8s to begin with, especially with their hydraulic cams.

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I lament the lack of a wide-bore Ford Modular engine, but the LS engines have shown that there is still life in a pushrod block.

"Vintage Displacement and Modern Technology combine for Great Performance"

GM has their own LS 327, called the (very creative) name of "LS327". But with tiny valve sizes (1.8" vs the standard 2 or 2.2") low compression (9.5:1 vs 10:1) and very narrow bore, it's a bit of a sham compared to the original 327. I think we can do better.

Due to the bad reputation of the L92, and the high cost of the LS3, let's base the engine on an LS2 block, which has 4" bore, slightly lower than the LS3's 4.06, but identical to the original 327. The LS3 is also significantly more expensive. However, if you want to use the L92 (which, someone more knowledgeable than me may be able to explain the exact differences) you can save yourself about $2000. However, it may cost that much more to bring the truck engine to spec. This would involve deleting the cylinder deactivation and adjusting the variable valve timing, though.

It's an all-aluminum engine with iron sleeves, making it very lightweight (50 lbs less than the 240Z's stock L24) for its size. Most LS engines are a head and cam limited, meaning that it is known for being able to reach much higher RPMs than is within its powerband. A standard LS2 will stop making power at 6500rpm (the redline for most LS2s) but have been known to take 7200rpm without damage regularly. Plus, unlike the other examples I've looked at, the LS2 block can take boost and 800+ HP without needing an aftermarket casting, making it a much cheaper long-term solution than the previously examined parts. It also has a bolt-in swap kit available, just like the SBC and LT1.

The LQ9 aluminum heads, thanks to their large rectangular port, when ported can have flow numbers the touch 300 @28" water on the intake side, making them suitable for most builds below 600HP, plus, slightly lowering the compression ratio allows forced induction, the ability to run lower-end gas, or (in our case) the ability to run a longer 6.275" rod to get a better rod/stroke ratio. This means that they are, generally, better than some aftermarket heads. Best of all, they can cost less than LS2 stock heads, and way less than aftermarket heads.

Here's the build with some generic cost estimates:

Chevy 5.4l "327" Hybrid (Actually 328 ci, but who's counting?)
GM Gen IV LS2 Aluminum Block ($5000)
Bore: 4.0"
Stroke: 3.27"
GM Vortech LY2 Crank ( 3.27" stroke) ($400) + rebalanced for LS2 pistons
GM Vortech LQ9 Heads (wide, rectangular port) ($300)
GM Vortech LY2 Connecting Rods ( 6.275" ) ($200)
LS2 stock pistons ( 1.34" compression height, no dome) ($0)
Sell LS2 cam, intake, exhaust, heads, valves, crank, and connecting rods: (+$3500)
High-RPM solid roller Cam, springs, and valves: $2000
Ported LS2 intake: $100
Exhaust manifolds for higher RPM use: $300
Total: $4800

Specs:
Deck Height: 9.24"
TDC: .01" above deck
Compression ratio on Gen IV LQ heads, 0.03" gasket, flat LS2 Pistons: 9.96:1
4350ft/min mean piston speed (max for the 6.0 block stock) at: 8000rpm
Rod/Stroke ratio: 1.92
Bore/Stroke ratio: 1.23
Peak power estimate (with properly timed cam, intake, and exhaust:) 7500rpm
HP estimate: 480HP @ 7500rpm, around 400 ft/lbs torque between 4000 and 6000rpm.

If we assume a similar VE as the LQ9 has at its peak power of 332HP @ 5100 rpm (in reality, it would be higher if the intake/exhaust were tuned, compression ratio is very similar) then we end up with 480HP ~7500rpm . That's over 1.45 HP per cubic inch, or 89HP / liter, all from "lego-pieces" of LS motors. That's a conservative estimate, if you can manage VEs closer to other decently modified engines, you'd hit closer to 500HP.

So at the end of the day, this theoretical build has you spend about the same amount of money on a stock 400HP LS2, and comes out with a 500HP high-RPM engine that would be more controllable in a lightweight car, for about the same cost thanks to GM's part sharing and the wonders of supply and demand. Best of all, it's nearly 50% more powerful than GM's own LS327 for the same cost.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 10:23

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I love the idea of building a kickass engine from a ton of others with parts compatibility.

It's also a bit of a misnomer that the LS engine is lighter than the Datsun 6. Most of the weights quoted for LS engines seem to be in shortblock for (same with BMW engines). Fully dressed, an LS2 weighs in at 204kg (450lbs) vs 176kg (388lbs) for the L24.

If you can find evidence to the contrary, I'd love to hear it. I've been trying to compile a spreadsheet of various engines of note but it's bloody hard to get good data.

They're still incredibly light for the displacement they offer, but they're not the featherlight blocks that people think.

BugEyedBimmer - back in the Saddle Dakota Leather > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 10:24

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I love EVERYTHING about this post. Thank you so much.

GhostZ > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 01/21/2014 at 10:28

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The L24 is usually about 25lbs heavier than an iron-block SBF, and 25 lighter than an Iron Block SBC, so I assumed the aluminum block LS would be significantly lighter. It's possible that it's overall greater size and denser construction adds the additional weight. I've also seen teh L24/L26/L28 quoted as closer to 425 lbs.

Echo51 > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 10:48

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Now build it in automation! http://automationgame.com/

Paul, Man of Mustangs > Echo51 01/21/2014 at 10:58

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I just wish I could plug in cam specs so I can more closely match my 289's build.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 11:01

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Hmmm, have you got links for where those weights came from?

See what I mean it's a bugger to get accurate weights. Everyone seems to weigh them with different bits missing: 'here's the weight of a fully dressed Ford SOHC, minus an alternator...and some bits of the intake'.

I've got a Ford SOHC pegged at 227kg (~500lbs), which seems a bit light to me but it's the most solid piece of info I've found. Most of the others seems to be along the lines of 'I've heard it weighs like 600lbs'.

Echo51 > Paul, Man of Mustangs 01/21/2014 at 11:01

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Some of the things would indeed be nice to be matchable to real world figures, would be useful for simulating upgrades to engines and so. Too detailed to model i assume...

Casper > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 11:02

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Obviously there is a lot of theory involved here. Math is easy enough, getting it to manifest through the gray areas like "with properly timed cam, intake, and exhaust" as well as reaching a theoretically optimal head flow for both bottom and top end power bands gets to be harder.

If you could build this engine it would be quite the beast, but you would be building an engine yourself from scratch compared to a precision assembled crate engine with a warranty. So there are other differences to consider.

DatASSun > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 11:02

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Love the Post man .. I was under the understanding that my stock L28E with all its EFI "stuff" was the same weight as my aluminum 5.3 liter .. I'll try to throw them on the scale when they are both out of the car and let you know ..

Still need a efi Set up for my 5.3 liter before anything happens ):

Paul, Man of Mustangs > Echo51 01/21/2014 at 11:04

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Yeah. I don't blame them for not trying to model all the intake/exhaust port styles, valve arrangements, chamber shapes, etc. Things would start to get complicated in a hurry.

PS9 > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 11:07

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I'd love to see an 8k RPM LS1 with a flat plane crank.

camaroboy68ss > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 11:10

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Talking about modern 327s gets my mind all in gear on the old 327s. My 68 camaro is a #s matching 327 car. The 68 block is a one year oddball block due to removing the draft tube out the back and adding PCV valves and breather. It's a great motor perfect for cruising but when you wind it up man it screams.

Talking about getting a V8 to high rpms you need to as smooth of surface on any friction parts. My grandfather built a 327 Chevy for a 55 Chevy gasser he had. The crown jewel was the crank shaft the entire thing looked like chrome it was polished so much. That motor would rev to 10 grand and not break a sweat. If you look at older Chevy small blocks let me know. I know the blocks to find and what's ones to avoid. Plus even though the all look the same there was a lot if differences between 1955-1988 on gen I small blocks.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 11:11

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It seems you're right about the L24. Someone weighed a complete engine and came out at 421lbs .

Still lighter than any LS I've come across, but only by 25lbs or so. For over twice the displacement, that's not bad at all.

GhostZ > Casper 01/21/2014 at 11:14

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Well, considering that tens of thousands of engine shops do just that on a regular basis, it's not like you can't build an engine like this, and factory "precision" assembly is usually within larger tolerances than aftermarket parts. Not always, but usually. For example, GM LS deck heights tend to vary by up to .01" from the factory, meaning that compression ratios for a "precision assembled crate engine" can differ as well.

But timing a cam, intake, and exhaust to match the bottom end isn't difficult, and is also heavily based on math (I'm just too lazy to calculate the dynamics involved), so I imagine that mapping everything out on paper like this is a great way to start.

GhostZ > Echo51 01/21/2014 at 11:15

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I might do it in engine analyzer pro (I did the Chevy 302 in it) eventually. I haven't gotten around to playing with Automation yet.

OtherBarry > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 11:16

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Sell LS2 cam, intake, exhaust, heads, valves, crank, and connecting rods: (+$3500)

Good luck with all that. Love the idea, but a 5.3 truck engine with a car intake are going to get you in cheaper on the engine budget. Also, you need to factor in the cost of the fuel system that needs to be replaced (might be able to use the tank at least), transmission and the rear end you are going to grenade. Might want to stiffen that chassis as well.

I like where you are going with this, but I have done a lot of engine swaps and you will get nickel and dimed to death.

GhostZ > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 01/21/2014 at 11:18

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Pushrods are surprisingly light compared to DOHCs, and then there's the whole aluminum block thing. I think DOHC engines have a lower weight cam system (and one that can rev higher by nature, with lower weight per valve volume), but the added weight of the larger heads, more cams, and more valves and springs totals up very fast.

You think that's nuts though, check out the weights on the RB26DETT. It's about as heavy as a Chevy Big Block I think.

GhostZ > DatASSun 01/21/2014 at 11:23

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Just blow your whole budget and get something like this:

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 11:31

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Yeah, they're 273kg, and the 2JZ is 269 as well. That includes the weight of the turbos as well.

If you want ludicrously high weight, the HE Jaguar V12 is 359kg (791lbs). That's all-alloy and only SOHC as well.

Mind you, you can punch them out to a shade over 10 litres...

Casper > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 11:33

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Yes, but labor isn't factored into the pricing here. Taking that pile of parts to a shop and telling them you napkin mathed an engine that should be 500 HP, but don't have a head design/flow tested for it, you will be eating a lot more money, assuming they would take on the project.

I'm totally sure you can get there, I have made some absurd gains from engines with just junk yard part mix and matches... but don't underestimate the cost of a good shop to make it all work for you. Really what you would have is a great starting point, then would come the time consuming part of playing with cams, intake runners, porting on the head, etc. The labor might shoot past the cost of parts very quickly if there is a lot of bench testing and/or fab work happening. Of course it would be considerably cheaper if you just slapped it together and were happy with whatever power it happened to make and whatever power band resulted.

GhostZ > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 01/21/2014 at 11:37

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Yeah, I knew about the 10 liters thing, but no idea about the weight!

GhostZ > Paul, Man of Mustangs 01/21/2014 at 11:39

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As I did with someone else in an automation thread... I point you to Engine Analyzer Pro.

http://performancetrends.com/Engine-Analyze…

Just run the trial on a virtual machine or dual boot or a laptop you don't care about reformatting, unless you want to mess around with registry hacks to get around the expiry date.

GhostZ > Casper 01/21/2014 at 11:43

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Obviously the total swap would be a lot more expensive, but that's going to be the case with any decent engine build, so I only included the cost of the parts, which is unique to this particular build.

But as with all of the threads I've made about this, it's all about a low-torque, high-RPM cheap and reliable V8 in a lightweight classic body, and has a lot more to do with the feel and uniqueness of the engine than the output.

For the $10,000 in total cost it would take to get those parts, plus an adapter for the transmission, plus pull the original engine, plus the mounts for the LS, you could make 400-500HP on a stock L28E. Though, not for very long!

Casper > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 11:49

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I wouldn't try to push that kind of power from an L28, but that isn't the only option either. Pushing 500HP in general will require a lot of work to the car... we have turned S30s in half with that much power, or even less, without serious frame reinforcement. You can do without for a while, but eventually you break so many welds and crack so many parts that the car is just falling a part around the drivetrain.

When you are talking $10,000 you are getting into a lot of options with 500HP potential... heck you can get that out of a 4 cylinder for that kind of money. The trick is getting the power band you want. Low end torque is nice, but when considered in the application at hand, an S30, I would say the issue will be traction/not breaking things. If you can get an LSD that can take the full torque, reinforce the body, and get enough meat under the car to hook, it would be great.

Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 11:54

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You can also develop flat-plane cranks such as the one from Lingenfelter, giving you endless amounts of quick engine response.

DatASSun > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 11:58

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um .. I dont have much of a budget so to speak .. I make decent money like 500 a week .. I dont have anything saved up at all .. I just buy as much as I can with each paycheck and make it to the next payday ... Truly living paycheck to paycheck so I can get this build done and make it to 2k

GhostZ > Casper 01/21/2014 at 12:02

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I've seen L28s hit 500HP with a long-stroke and KA24 pistons (~3.1l) and 20psi, but it gets very difficult to go any higher and doesn't hold together for long.

You'd want to use an R200 Mechanical LSD from an S13, which bolts into/came stock on the 280Z (but not the 240z or non 2+2 260z), right? The stock 240z R180 is a weak link in the drivetrain I believe. I suppose you COULD upgrade to an R230 from a 300ZX (which can take upwards of 700 ft/lbs I think), but I don't know how much custom work would be involved in making it fit.

If I had endless money to blow, I would dream of a 280Z stripped bare with a stitch-welded chassis, a number of stiffening options, and carbon-fiber hood and hatch to offset the added stiffening weight, throw on some adapted Z32 disc brakes G-nose front end, bumper deletes, Z432 fender flares and ducktail, with some wider tires and a twin turbo Hartley V8.

GhostZ > Satoshi "Zipang" Katsura 01/21/2014 at 12:07

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"Hey, what should we make this engine sound like...?"

"Hm..."

"Any ideas?"

"Got it."

"Oh?"

" Motley Crue. "

Seriously though, that's totally badass.

Casper > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 12:18

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R200s come in long and short nose varieties. Generally anything from the 80s and older is a long nose, anything from 89+ is a short nose. You can adapt any of them to work, they even sell kits for the R230s, but you have to make custom axles and such at that point. You can also use R200s from STIs, but you will be converting to a snap ring style, which is not a direct change over.

I compiled a ton of info on the little web page I started while doing my build. Most of the differential info is from Hybrid Z because they have the best write ups by far. Just scroll down to the info about differentials and there should be both the key info there as well as a link to the hybrid Z threads. I haven't finished fully filling the site with info, but I dumped a lot up there.

http://www.sr240z.net/the-nitty-grit…

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > GhostZ 01/21/2014 at 14:10

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Yeah they're colossal things. The pre-HE engines are a good chunk lighter. 308kg vs 359kg (679lbs vs 791lbs)

That reminds me, I must find out the weight of some other V12s to compare. There's Ferrari, Lambo and BMW that I can think of off the top of my head.

Brad Waller > GhostZ 01/28/2014 at 17:54

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This is pretty close to a favorite engine of mine. Just a modern "LS" take on it. The old version of this ends up as a "350" (actually a 352 or so) by taking a 400 small block and using a 327 crank and long 6.3" rods/ You get very similar rod/stroke ratio and the idea is much the same. VE might be lower with the old school tech, but with good heads, big valves, and the right cam is should be pretty close to this.

GhostZ > Brad Waller 01/28/2014 at 17:59

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I researched that awhile ago. The 400 block doesn't share main journals with the 327 crank, so you'd have to custom-grind a new crank or bore out a 350 block to 400 levels. The 327 journal sizes are 2.3" and 2.45" depending on year, and the 350 is 2.45". The 400 is the odd block out with 2.65". You can widen the journals on a 350 to accept a 400 crank, but you can't easily (if you plan lots of revs and power) narrow the 400's journals down to accept a 350 or 327 crank.

Brad Waller > GhostZ 01/28/2014 at 19:31

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Everything is possible with machine work. I know this can be done, as I have one sitting in my garage right now...

GhostZ > Brad Waller 01/28/2014 at 19:34

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Really? That's awesome!

What machine work did you end up doing to get it all to fit, and what are your future plans with it, if you don't mind me asking?

Brad Waller > GhostZ 01/28/2014 at 19:53

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A buddy had it in his wife's Corvette, and when he pulled the engine he freshened it up and sold it to me. I don't have every detail of the machine work, but he owned the engine shop. Here is his list of parts:

2-bolt 400 block (3951511 casting, date 1 18 72), magnafluxed, bored (4.156" bore) and honed with torque plates, squared and decked, align honed, and with ARP main studs.

All clearances blueprinted and Block has been squared and decked to .010" deck height.

All oil galleries have been smoothed and all casting flash removed from the oil drain backs.

Melling HV oil pump with blueprinted clearances.

3.25" forged 4340 steel crankshaft (original GM piece for a 327), lightened, cross-drilled and chamfered, and polished.

Forged 6.30" Ford 300" I-6 connecting rods. Polished beams, shot peened, ARP 'Wave-loc' rod bolts installed.

New Oliver/King's bearings

JE custom forged ultra-light pistons.

File fit Speed Pro moly rings

Entire rotating assembly has been internally balanced

SFI approved Fluidampr balancer

All clearances have been blueprinted, and it uses Oliver/King's bearings throughout.

Custom ground Comp hyd. roller camshaft, 220/228 @ .050", ~0.5" lift, with 114 lobe center

Comp tie-bar roller lifters

Comp springs, retainers, and locks

Crane rocker arms.

Cloyes True-Roller timing chain

Holley Avenger Carb

Edelbrock Victor Jr. heads, milled to drop the chamber to 58cc

Edelbrock Victor Jr. intake

GhostZ > Brad Waller 01/28/2014 at 19:56

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That cam profile makes me smile. It bet it was a beast. Using the Ford connecting rods is genius.

Brad Waller > GhostZ 01/28/2014 at 20:07

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I'm hoping to get it into the car and dyno'ed in the next few months. I'll have to change my avatar to the 1966 Corvette that it will be going into, and then maybe post up the results on my Jalopnik channel that I have never used.

Sai Namuduri > BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires 12/10/2015 at 06:44

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the only crazy light V12 I can think of is the outlandish S70/2 that was in the F1. Less than 500 pounds INCLUDING the gearbox. Now that is awesome.

BiTurbo228 - Dr Frankenstein of Spitfires > Sai Namuduri 12/10/2015 at 06:48

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That is superlight. Wonder if that’s with fluids included...

Either way it’s impressive :)

JasonTx > Brad Waller 07/17/2016 at 02:40

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just curious... how about an update - high rpm’s ?

Brad Waller > JasonTx 07/26/2016 at 02:41

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Thanks for asking. The car has been eating rotors. I need to get some answers from MSD or a different distributor before I can run it at speed. Hopefully soon.